Education and the Evolution of Surveying - An Industry Chat with Pauric McKenna from McDonald Surveys

John Kerrigan

Pauric I wanted to thank you for giving up your time for a catch-up. We have both been part of the survey industry for a long time, having first met in 1998, tell me what is your favourite thing about being a surveyor?


Pauric McKenna

Hey, John thanks for having me. For me the best thing about surveying is the new technology and projects, everything's different. It's moved on a lot. We probably started off with predominantly land surveying and mapping and now it’s more about the construction side of things for McDonald Surveys.

The technology's moved on massively in the last 20 years. Sometimes just getting out to the site for a day is great, that's probably my favourite part.


John Kerrigan

Absolutely, I remember being out there working on site, doing the survey, knowing it in your head and coming back in the evening, starting the processing and actually seeing your day's work in front of you, it’s fantastic.

Has there been a favourite project you’ve worked on throughout your 20 years in the survey industry?


Pauric McKenna

There’s probably a couple! I suppose the first big one would have been the M25, a road I was on last week with my family and I was telling them how I was involved in the project.

The other one that stands out is the work we led in the Middle East. We produced 4D simulations of GOSP site for upgrade work. This involved scanning the facility and then basically clash detecting the removal and replacement of new GOSP vessels which were 40 metres long. These need to be brought through existing facilities. Those were interesting projects, especially when you integrate the 3D survey information and the 3D models, making it all work together and sending that information to other design teams. The data was even used for security reasons. Land surveying is now being used to inform a lot more disciplines than it did say 20 years ago.


John Kerrigan

Yeah, I think there's a definite appreciation in the industry for the skill sets that land surveyors bring to projects. Having a true understanding of the impact of using the latest technology that we have been trained on, and the benefits of applying it to the projects. I think sometimes the land surveyor probably gets forgotten about. We don't shout enough about the skills that we bring to the industry, I think maybe that's something that as a profession we do need to share a lot more and say, listen, we’re here and we bring a lot of expertise to these incredible projects.

Pauric, you and McDonald Surveys have used a variety of equipment over the years from UAVs for mapping large areas as well as more traditional methods.  What changes have you seen with regard to the role that technology plays in capturing data?


Pauric McKenna

The amount of data that we capture now has changed things massively, especially for streetscapes, particularly for highways and roadways, and still, when you tell clients that this can be done, they’re amazed. It’s surprising that this kind of education is not there yet, that Architects and Engineering consultants still don't understand the capabilities of the technology we use and the deliverables we are able to achieve. It’s probably a failing on the surveyor’s part there because we tend to forget to sell our wares. So that’s probably the biggest change.  In the past we would have done photo-control where we were previously going and visiting points in the middle of highways. You just don't need to do those things anymore and it has made the job a lot safer.

Now everything has GPS, such as your phone even your watch, and people are not perhaps as impressed by the tech we’re showing them. It used to be like “wow this makes things so much easier than it was last week!” and now people are more like “oh yeah another update.


John Kerrigan

It's true, it's true, I think what you said there, the comment you made about your clients not knowing perhaps as much about the technology, or the capabilities of technology, really resonates with me. Perhaps one aspect that we as manufacturers should concentrate on is the messaging and education of the industry as to how we are capturing and processing more data than ever before.

This has changed massively with the introduction of Reality Capture and the Laser Scanning technology that plays a crucial part in most projects nowadays. The benefits to the client as you rightly point out are immeasurable. The days of rework and endless site visits can be a thing of the past.


Pauric McKenna

I think the industry is trying to do a lot of work on that,  RICS and the CICES, and that we're trying to push that out a bit more and make sure that the specifications have options.

The think here is those options should act as trigger. When the different clients then opt for an off the shelf specification, they might say why aren't we using this option, then? So that will help. But yes there is definitely an element of education needed out there.

I also find surveyors just tend to go out and meet other surveyors whereas what we need to be doing is going and meeting clients. With you and me talking to each other I probably know what you're selling me but I need to be out talking to the clients more. Our LinkedIn pages are all surveyors and not Clients.


John Kerrigan

I agree that the institutions are trying to keep their community of professionals updated on the latest trends and for me it gives me the opportunity to keep those ties with the industry. Being part of an institution, they are working for you trying to make those ties with industry.

Do you want to have a comment on that, about being part of a professional institution?


Pauric McKenna

I think we have a problem in Ireland, less so maybe over in the UK. If you're cheap enough it doesn’t matter if you’re Chartered, you get the work in Ireland, which isn't good enough.

And you know you find out fairly quickly, you get the phone call in six week’s time from the client saying that the cheap guys didn't do it right and can you come back in as soon as possible and fix it at which point they’re more than happy to pay the higher rate and usually ask for two guys as they need it done really quickly. I think being chartered or a member of a professional body sells better in the UK, maybe even in Europe, than it does in Ireland. Here it tends to be a race to the bottom, unfortunately.

I think maybe that's where the different institutions and Government agencies that we have need to come in and try and say, look, you're getting a few specification companies, if they don't deliver to that, don't pay them. Then the companies will come in and start delivering to what’s required.

We're on a few good frameworks, which have strong well thought out specifications, that a lot of the local councils are starting to use now, which is great. That means the clients know they're going to get back all the data and formats required.

We basically go back and we ask clients, “What do you need this for? What’s the job for?” Because otherwise down the road it ends up being complicated and they don't get what they need.


John Kerrigan

I agree Pauric, it is really important that the work carried out is up to specification and that this is outlined and adhered to. I think there's a massive amount of work that can be done. RICS have done work in the UK and Ireland with regards specifications, and I know surveying companies work very hard with the institutions, but I still think it's not perhaps as readily available for all the different organisations that are coming to you looking for surveys to get their hands on them. So perhaps more work still needs to be done on that.

That brings us on to the current issues that we’re seeing in the industry. From your perspective, what are the most pressing?


Pauric McKenna

Construction industry-wide I’d say the main issue is resources of staff, it's finding experienced people and keeping them. We're pretty good, through the years, we've had a lot of people who've worked with us for the past 20 years, but it's hard to keep good staff and it's extremely hard to get them in the door in the first place.

Everyone is offering similar things. We're all offering the latest technology; we're all offering good terms and conditions and there's just not enough people out there. I think what’s probably happened a fair bit today is that Geomatics students coming out of university tend to like the idea of GIS and sitting behind the desk in the office. They're not as interested in doing the actual data capture or the construction set out. We've been able to get a lot of building surveyors in who know the building but generally need to be trained up on the survey techniques and installing control etc. You can easily spend 18 months bringing those guys up to spec.

Being a setting out engineer is now a full-time role. We used to go in on sites, you're asked to set up four posts, and we'll see you at the end for the as-built if you’re lucky. Now we have surveyors who are there for 48 week contracts, you're there from start to finish, you’re the first one in and the last one out.


John Kerrigan

I think this is a common theme that we are seeing across the UK and Ireland and a challenge for the industry as a whole. The role of Engineers and Surveyors are hugely important and how do we counteract that staff and skill shortage, Knowing that having a good set of reliable and trained surveyors & Engineers protects from any issues that may potentially arise, would you agree Pauric?


Pauric McKenna

It’s been driven by BIM as well, clients have an IFC drawing there, they know they have to build to that, they have to provide an as-built back and they have to prove that they delivered the job. You’re talking about multinational companies coming in here. Now you’re dealing with big foreign direct investment companies who know they have a long-term plan. They’re not just building block A, they’re building multiple blocks and they realise and understand everything has to link together, they've been here before and they know how important that information is.

It’s great that there's longer-term involvement for setting out surveyors. We call them setting out surveyors because they don't want to be involved in the redesign. We don't need to be doing design work, we're not there to do design work, we’re there to set the information out correctly. This took a while to get some of our clients to realise buts that's what we're selling.

Our clients know that our guys know how to set out the pins in the right location, set out with buildability in mind, that the builders and the excavation guys and different crews can come on site and work with. Once you get a good working relationship with those guys, then they want you to follow them to the next site, basically.


John Kerrigan

You talked about graduates coming out from college and current graduates coming out. When we graduated from college, we were out on the tools, surveying and I think that maybe the newest graduates probably aren't set up to do that or perhaps have different aspirations.


Pauric McKenna

Yeah, and they’re probably right with those aspirations too. For instance, there are a few considerations, there’s the physical ability, maybe they don't want to or can’t be out in the field. But if they can be for at least a couple of years they should be. On the geomatics side of things, it’s important to spend two years on the tools to get that grounding and that depth of understanding. You can learn everything you want in theory but you need to be on site.

We've all been in college, projects are not usually evenly shared. You know we've all had one person who’s led a lot of the work and someone else might not have had a chance to get to grips with all of it.

We have guys who love that work, we partner graduates with our senior surveyors so that they get out on the ground early on, this lets them get out and get used to the equipment without massive pressure, after which you step them up to the total stations.

That can't happen straight out of the box because initially they don't understand what's being asked of them and they don't understand the lingo because that's not what they learn in college.

We’ve even had people coming in from other parts of Europe and we’ve seen the difference in local colloquialisms, you know, everyone refers to things a little bit differently. They don't necessarily understand that so they need that couple of weeks as well to get used to the local terminology.

That's what the clients want. They know that we all will have good equipment, they know we have educated staff, but they want the guys who have come in to be given that bit more experience. We give them a bit more knowledge of construction in particular as well.

Land surveying hasn’t changed massively in 20 years, scanning has helped it certainly but, you know, if you have to go into an overgrown field, you still have to get the instrument out yourself, you have to be willing to do the work and we’ve found there’s generally a lack of students who want to do that.

In the industry, people think surveyors can just look at a field and it's done, it's not possible you have to go in, you have to get into every corner if you want the job done right.


John Kerrigan

But you're doing an investigation, because you need to pick up every service that's there, or any culverts or anything like that could be about, you need to get in there as it could be all overgrown, you need to properly check what’s there.


Pauric McKenna

There are companies that will do it and there are companies that won’t and at the end of the day, it’s all about quality. The thing about the students that I think is important to note is that there's so much tech available to them and they know how quickly it changes. So it doesn’t excite them as much anymore, so it’s not the setting out that attracts them. Maybe if we can get them to realise what actually can be done with the data, that would help.


John Kerrigan

It’s an interesting thing you say that because I speak to organisations now and they're reluctant to invest in something new because they think, “I don’t want to invest in this because something else will be coming out tomorrow or the next day,” you know what I mean? Obviously, there's a reluctance in investing in tech because they believe that they're going to invest in older tech.

Manufacturers like Hexagon/Leica geosystems invest heavily into their product portfolio, always with the end game in sight to make the capture of data more precise and to deliver a great end user experience. Innovation is what is important and has led us to Laser scanning going from a specialised piece of kit to an everyday tool for the job. By not investing, some companies will miss the boat and will fall behind the organisations that are willing to invest.


Pauric McKenna

At the end of the day, the technologies might improve but the theory on how you use laser scanning technology is still matching point clouds together, it’s still putting in your measurement control, all of that is still the basis of it. So you just had iterations of it now and a lot smoother operations. But yeah, I think we need to work to energise kids about the industry and excite them to become surveyors.


John Kerrigan

I think there’s a responsibility of people like us going out and being STEM ambassadors and talking about what surveying is in that context. I know in the UK there is a massive Get Kids Into Survey campaign going on and I think we probably need to step that up in Ireland. We should also consider having survey apprentices as well, could you see that as a way forward?

Pauric McKenna

I think the most important thing will be the next step once they get their apprenticeship and how their career path is laid out. Perhaps provide dispensation to join Geomatics in their second year, the earn as you learn model and benchmark the apprentice against the fulltime student so they can prove the benefit of this valuable work experience. We have to have it as well for when graduates come to us, they need to have a Graduate Programme where they know where they're going next.


John Kerrigan

Definitely, I think the industry is crying out for it. I’m talking every day to different contractors and there are massive opportunities in BIM, construction and everything else going forward.


Pauric McKenna

To remain competitive as well there’s also the salary to consider. We can't be expecting people to come in and work as an apprentice for minimum wage. Realistically they’re coming into an industry where after six months, you're going to be able to charge for the work they’re carrying out. Get the vehicle, get the equipment, give them everything that they should be getting if we want them to stay in the industry.


John Kerrigan

Absolutely, they have to be treated well, because they are going to be valuable members of the team at the end of the day.


Pauric McKenna

The people we have in this company are often here 20 years later and the new engineers coming in, you need to keep them engaged because if you don’t they’ll leave us. Sometimes you just have to have the stepping stones laid out for them so that they know what their options are. If you don’t do this they can get bored. What we do can get repetitive so it’s important they go to new sites every day and even to new countries.


John Kerrigan

Yeah, keep them challenged. I see you are doing some teaching as well, how has that been going for you?


Pauric McKenna

It’s been great and I see two different ends of the spectrum I suppose because sometimes you're in Technology University Dublin you’re dealing with mature students, a lot of them coming in who are maybe foremen/women and they're looking to get the qualifications they need to step off and be project managers or whatever it is they aspire to.

The mature students that have the experience, they're totally invested in it, they want to get involved. They're probably coming at it from a viewpoint of, what can this do for me? How can this save me time? How can it save me money, they're not necessarily looking to be out using the gear because the project and their role in the business is at the point where they're bringing the resources in to solve the problem and they just need to know what's involved and what can be done. So, you know, look how many of those guys are going to go using the equipment? Probably not a lot, but how many are going to employ a lot of surveyors and engineers, you know, that's what they are, that’s where they need us.

We’re seeing a lot of young school leavers coming in these days and the tech doesn't blow them away as it blew us away, they’re used to it, in some cases, it doesn’t even register. So we have a different way of selling it, by saying look how much easier this is going to make your life, because you start them off with tapes and chains and then you’re moving up to using the GPS or whatever, to do the same job. Then they tend to have this “aha” moment where they recognise how much it makes their life easier. That's how you sell it.

To get studnet excited about what we do you need to bring them into different scenarios, you know, before COVID started you’d have taken them to a construction site or somewhere for a visit, in order for them to see the gear in operation in real life. But since COVID put restrictions in place you can only replicate that so much. But there is definitely interest there and I find that the more practical students are more interested in the surveying side of things. The folks that are more into the theory, they'll be looking more at GIS side, where as the practical people want to be out using the instrumentation.

We probably have a problem here in Ireland in that data extraction and data management is sold out of here, you try and buy-in that service which means the younger graduates don’t get those jobs that they want and they’re not going to go abroad for these jobs, so it can be tricky.


John Kerrigan

Yeah, I think that's something to address for the future, though. I think more and more organisations, and I see it all the time in my business, are understanding what they can do with the data now and as you say, the data now is the value.


Pauric McKenna

Capturing it and having the data is one thing but getting it out there is another.


John Kerrigan

So there is technology out there now and I think I've even seen it a lot more personally, from a Leica Geosystems point of view, we're seeing a lot of organisations now saying, oh, if I had the data, if I had the digital point cloud of our facility here, I'd be able to make decisions very, very quickly. But it's not only me that needs to be able to make decisions, it's everyone in my organisation that needs to be able to see this. So that data becomes accessible to everyone so that they can start making decisions.



Pauric McKenna

And for Management too, they can look at the information we’re capturing now, I mean people are used to using Google Maps, they’re used to all these kinds of interfaces, they want Google Maps of the building.


John Kerrigan

People love that and interactivity with their own facility and with their assets. Organisations sometimes don't actually know all the assets they have. They're using scanning to trace assets and that's only going to get bigger and you actually spoke about underground detection of assets in the ground as well. The amount of assets that are probably unknown underground is huge, there are massive opportunities for the survey industry within that type of business.

From your Outlook, you've been in the industry for 20 years, what’re your thoughts on the biggest opportunities for the survey industry going forward?


Pauric McKenna

So we'd be very heavily involved on the construction side of things here and then partnering up with the right construction companies that are thinking the right way. They're thinking around BIM, they're thinking about the proper use of scanners for as-built, verification and validation, that’s where surveyors need to be. We know how to put the processes and controls in place that will repeat the same result, again, you can check things. As you said, the whole underground detection, utility tracing and mapping will be very important.  It’s essential that we do not do what happened when GPS was introduced and we saw folks running around doing cheaper surveys as they didn’t need as much equipment etc. You can’t train people to be a surveyor by showing them how to use GPS equipment.

With regards to GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) a three days training course doesn't cover it, you’re not going to find gas pipelines with just three days of training. So we have to be responsible for what we do there.

A lot of the as-built work will be important, and we should be on every large scale construction site, we should be there all the time, as opposed to just dropping in and out. Because when you're there, and your client understands that they have you, then they’ll use you.

Our clients are starting to think that way and as McDonald Surveys, we are mindful of it, we want to work beside them, be their supply chain partner, get them the kind of people they want, you know, the certain type of experience that they need. That said we also need the industry to step up a bit. All the sites have one man instruments these days but it's impossible to train someone if there are only one man teams. Particularly in construction, there are loads of opportunities for the student or graduates to be in beside a senior surveyor, fulfilling a billable QA QC role but also learning the ropes.

We also have health and safety paperwork that they can help out with, that’s all key experience. So basically when we ask our client for a chain person and they say, “who's the newest operative?” or who's free at the minute who's not brushing the floor, we'll put them in there”. No disrespect to that person, but they're not learning because they've only been pulled in to do something at the last minute. If you have trainees working alongside senior surveyors, they’re learning all the time.

If they’re with them for maybe half a day, every second day or something like that, they’re gaining knowledge that will then give them confidence. So somewhere along the line, somebody has to train these student surveyors.

We’ve put a lot of investment into new grads and yeah, they get frustrated too, because they want to be showing what they know but you must hold them back to make sure they understand it because it's a risk to everyone.



John Kerrigan

Pauric, it has been great to catch up and gain an understanding of the industry  from your perspective, and the challenges around technology and people that we need to address together. I believe in opening these discussions that together we can influence the direction of the industry for the future.

Looking forward to catching up soon in person.



Connect with John Kerrigan and Pauric McKenna on LinkedIn here.